| spevack | alright -- well this looks like enough people to have a bit of a conversation. So again, ignore where you are located in the world. If you are in this channel and paying attention, I want to hear from you! | 22:03 |
|---|---|---|
| spevack | cwickert: that's right, i forgot it was tonight! did you win? | 22:03 |
| spevack | let's do a quick roll call | 22:03 |
| cwickert | 1:1 | 22:03 |
| spevack | Max Spevack | 22:03 |
| cwickert | not finished | 22:04 |
| cwickert | Christoph Wickert | 22:04 |
| red_alert | Sandro Mathys | 22:04 |
| spevack | liknus, herlo, inode0 -- you guys still w/ us? | 22:04 |
| liknus | spevack: yeap :) | 22:05 |
| inode0 | yes | 22:05 |
| ... join!#fedora-meeting -> Cookiekiller(n=any0n3@f050211167.adsl.alicedsl.de) | 22:05 | |
| GeroldKa | Gerold Kassube | 22:05 |
| spevack | ok... let me quickly review what i want to brainstorm tonight | 22:05 |
| liknus | spevack: also constanton is from Greece for the meeting :) | 22:05 |
| Cookiekiller | Michael Spahn | 22:06 |
| spevack | As many of you know, a few years ago GeroldKa came up with the idea of a "Fedora Ambassador Day" which was really a 2-day workshop for Ambassadors in a region to plan out their next 6-12 months of goals. | 22:06 |
| spevack | after a few of these events, two things were clear: | 22:06 |
| * herlo is here | 22:06 | |
| spevack | (1) They were successful, and they did not cost very much money. High value low cost. | 22:06 |
| spevack | (2) there was *no reason* why it had to be limited to only Ambassadors | 22:06 |
| spevack | So last year I told GeroldKa that I wanted to steal his acronym -- FAD -- and rename it Fedora Activity Day -- and try to put together small teams of contributors | 22:07 |
| spevack | anywhere in the world | 22:07 |
| spevack | that wanted to come together for face to face meetings/discussions/hackfests/etc | 22:07 |
| spevack | The result so far has been a moderate success, IMHO | 22:07 |
| spevack | take a look here, if you have not previously | 22:07 |
| spevack | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD | 22:08 |
| spevack | We've had 4 Fedora Activity Days so far this year, with another coming up next week in Malaysia, and yet another in North America being discussed | 22:08 |
| spevack | So that's pretty good, but I think that we can continue to do better | 22:08 |
| ... join!#fedora-meeting -> thm(n=thomas@fedora/thm) | 22:08 | |
| inode0 | what about the FAD at your apartment? | 22:09 |
| spevack | inode0: with Dimitris and Diego? That was an informal one :) | 22:09 |
| liknus | and the two extended hackfests here in Greece :) | 22:09 |
| spevack | I just did my normal work, and they hacked on Transifex all week. But I guess it counts :) | 22:09 |
| inode0 | was going to ask a serious question about the relative success of FADs attached to events vs. FADs standing on their own?! | 22:09 |
| spevack | inode0: sure, go ahead | 22:09 |
| spevack | hmmm | 22:09 |
| * spevack muses on that | 22:09 | |
| spevack | liknus: you're right! | 22:09 |
| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> djf_jeff("I quit") | 22:09 | |
| spevack | inode0: well, i've not been to any of the FADs in North America, so I only know what I've read in the reports. | 22:10 |
| spevack | I think they tend to serve very different purposes | 22:10 |
| spevack | hear me out for a moment, and I think it will lead nicely into where I wanted this meeting to go anyway | 22:10 |
| ... leave!#fedora-meeting -> thm() | 22:10 | |
| GeroldKa | ! | 22:11 |
| spevack | a FAD attached to an event has an opportunity to cater to a general user crowd while also allowing for some fedora-specific work to get done. I think the FADs we had at events in NA had some successes w/ packaging fonts and also with evangelizing Fedora to normal users. | 22:11 |
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| heffer | i'm here now too | 22:11 |
| spevack | I think that standalone events can be used to have very hardcore working sessions | 22:11 |
| spevack | where the users aren't really the focus at all, and it's just about developers really working hard face to face. "taking the U out of FUDCon" | 22:12 |
| spevack | GeroldKa: | 22:12 |
| GeroldKa | maybe I need to explain short, for what FAD stands legacy; it was in the past where the ... | 22:12 |
| GeroldKa | fas Account system was under a number of 100 | 22:12 |
| GeroldKa | and we started that Fedora Ambassador Day as max explained totally correct | 22:13 |
| GeroldKa | as a "planing Event" where all the more or less leaders come together and made the budget for the next year | 22:13 |
| GeroldKa | today and I also totally agree with Max, we need a new form and vision of a FAD | 22:13 |
| GeroldKa | and max decided to rename and rebrand the name as a Activity day | 22:14 |
| GeroldKa | where different groups or let's call them SIGs come together | 22:14 |
| GeroldKa | and that's the big charme of the event right now | 22:14 |
| GeroldKa | we tried to come on a place together which is close to a big group with short way | 22:15 |
| GeroldKa | to come together | 22:15 |
| GeroldKa | sorry, max | 22:15 |
| GeroldKa | I loste now the line and give up to you again :-) | 22:15 |
| spevack | GeroldKa -- no problem, speak up anytime! inode0: I want to get your current thoughts in a moment. let me briefly make one more comment of my own. | 22:15 |
| spevack | for me | 22:15 |
| spevack | one of the success metrics in my mind will be when we are having three things happen under the FAD umbrella: | 22:16 |
| spevack | (1) Day-long FADs of "opportunity" at events, a rough model for those has been experimented with in North America recently | 22:16 |
| spevack | (2) Standalone FADs that are non-technical -- like the old Fedora Ambassadors Day | 22:16 |
| ... join!#fedora-meeting -> mxcarron(n=maxime@fedora/Pingoomax) | 22:16 | |
| spevack | (3) standalone FADs that are technical -- whether that's around packaging, infrastructure, release engineering, XFCE, LXDE, etc. | 22:17 |
| spevack | inode0: your thoughts, sir? | 22:17 |
| spevack | on anything? | 22:17 |
| inode0 | yes | 22:17 |
| inode0 | I noticed a substantive difference between the apartment FAD and our NA FADs | 22:17 |
| inode0 | And while we have had some desire to attach a FAD to every event, I'm wondering if budget and experience might suggest trying some apartment FADs in NA instead? | 22:18 |
| inode0 | Where it is just a whole lot easier to focus on the task at hand. | 22:19 |
| spevack | inode0: let me give you a "for instance" | 22:19 |
| spevack | for instance, i know that 2 of our infrastructure guys -- mcgrath and dennis -- live relatively close to each other in chicago. One thought that I've had is "let's get 3 or 4 other Fedora Infrastructure guys to chicago also, and give them what they need to spend a week together just working and blogging and communicating back out to their sub-community. | 22:20 |
| spevack | you could replace that example with any other | 22:20 |
| inode0 | no that is exactly what I am thinking about | 22:20 |
| spevack | i wonder if it would be useful to have everyone just throw out any ideas that occur to them that could be a useful FAD | 22:21 |
| spevack | doesn't have to involve you | 22:21 |
| spevack | just any idea | 22:21 |
| spevack | and maybe that list, shown to a wider audience, will strike a chord with someone and they will want to make one of them happen | 22:21 |
| cwickert | max, you asked me about an LXDE FAD. the idea is good, but I'm not sure how many fedora folks it may attract | 22:22 |
| * inode0 pleads guilty to not knowing what sorts of problems exist that lend themselves to a FAD solution | 22:23 | |
| spevack | cwickert: because people are too far spread out | 22:23 |
| cwickert | well, now that Mario and Marcus joined Fedora we are at least 3 peole, but that's not enough I guess | 22:23 |
| spevack | i think inode0 hit upon the "key" realization a moment ago. | 22:23 |
| cwickert | or only for an "appartment FAD" | 22:23 |
| GeroldKa | if it helps Fedora? why not cwickert | 22:24 |
| spevack | even 2 people is enough for a successful FAD -- it's the communication back out of what you do during a several-day stretch of time that makes it a wide success or not | 22:24 |
| GeroldKa | make it public and invite the Fedora community | 22:24 |
| cwickert | ok, I will try | 22:24 |
| cwickert | but there is not much work to be done | 22:24 |
| cwickert | everything is in a pretty good shape | 22:24 |
| GeroldKa | it's for example the same for the FRT | 22:24 |
| GeroldKa | I had no idea how many people will attend | 22:24 |
| spevack | cwickert: then we have to pick a different "subject" then, maybe. :) | 22:25 |
| GeroldKa | at the end, we were more than 2o people | 22:25 |
| spevack | The basic idea is that things get done better & faster when you can enable face to face interactions | 22:25 |
| spevack | and THAT is what I want do to more of | 22:25 |
| spevack | provided that those face to face interactions don't turn into black holes where the results of work aren't communicated back out | 22:25 |
| GeroldKa | right Max, that is also my personal opinion in working and acting together | 22:25 |
| GeroldKa | IRC and events are not really efectiv and very high successfull for Teamwork | 22:26 |
| spevack | so i don't really know what to say other than -- I would ask all of you to keep your eyes open for opportunities to enable face to face interactions of 2 or more people that would be of obvious interest and value to Fedora | 22:26 |
| spevack | and then let's make them happen! | 22:26 |
| GeroldKa | if you have the opportunitie to come together for a day | 22:26 |
| red_alert | I'd create and announce a list like the one for F12 codename suggestions :) like 'for what thing in fedora would you want to see a small team to intensly work on?' | 22:26 |
| GeroldKa | you can skip the next 4 weeks of weekly IRC meetings :-) | 22:27 |
| * inode0 agrees with red_alert | 22:27 | |
| GeroldKa | red_alert, do you want to force SIGs? | 22:27 |
| inode0 | people in docs are best positioned to see such openings in docs - they should suggest them | 22:28 |
| * cwickert also agrees to red_alert | 22:28 | |
| red_alert | GeroldKa: no, why? | 22:28 |
| GeroldKa | because of the question, for me it sounds like | 22:29 |
| GeroldKa | split and find out | 22:29 |
| red_alert | GeroldKa: I want to gather ideas for future FADs, that's all | 22:29 |
| GeroldKa | like a Special Interest Group | 22:29 |
| inode0 | and from the people who best know what those problems are | 22:29 |
| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> ldimaggi_("Leaving") | 22:29 | |
| ... join!#fedora-meeting -> ldimaggi_(n=ldimaggi@c-76-19-171-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) | 22:30 | |
| red_alert | well, I guess you can call the people working on the same problem for 2 days some sort of a SIG, yes | 22:30 |
| GeroldKa | to be honest red_alert , the idea of today could maybe history of the day after tomorror | 22:30 |
| GeroldKa | and I personally like it to stand up and say: | 22:30 |
| GeroldKa | I organise a Fad with topic(s) Blah-Blah | 22:31 |
| GeroldKa | and the topics must not be fixed in front | 22:31 |
| GeroldKa | or written in stone | 22:31 |
| GeroldKa | it must be an interactive event where the frames are given | 22:31 |
| GeroldKa | but; ... | 22:31 |
| GeroldKa | that's all my personal opinion | 22:31 |
| GeroldKa | :-) | 22:31 |
| cwickert | GeroldKa: the problem is that obviously nobody of us has a good idea | 22:31 |
| cwickert | max asked two weeks ago, and nobody came up with one | 22:32 |
| GeroldKa | wonderful | 22:32 |
| GeroldKa | but cwickert I don't agree with you | 22:32 |
| cwickert | so lets ask the rest of the community | 22:32 |
| GeroldKa | everybody of us has excellent ideas | 22:32 |
| red_alert | I don't | 22:32 |
| cwickert | GeroldKa: so far nobody was ablle to make a good suggestion during the last two weeks | 22:32 |
| cwickert | and I'm sure there are peole out there who need a FAD more than we do | 22:33 |
| GeroldKa | suggestion for what? | 22:33 |
| cwickert | so lets ask them... | 22:33 |
| cwickert | for a topic | 22:33 |
| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> hanthana(Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | 22:33 | |
| red_alert | and as inode0 said, we probably wouldn't know what's needed to be done face-to-face in the docs team while that team itself would | 22:33 |
| red_alert | and the docs team might not know of our possibility to create such meetings | 22:34 |
| spevack | so | 22:34 |
| GeroldKa | imho a topic can be very easy | 22:34 |
| cwickert | example? | 22:34 |
| spevack | we've talked globally for a while. but let's now think in EMEA. Based on the people we have in Europe, what could we do? | 22:34 |
| GeroldKa | - which events we will cover next year | 22:34 |
| liknus | ! | 22:35 |
| GeroldKa | - which new features we want to have in FXX | 22:35 |
| GeroldKa | - How to combine Country work to a EMEA work | 22:35 |
| GeroldKa | and much moe | 22:35 |
| heffer | is this open floor or are we using the ! system? | 22:35 |
| red_alert | open floor, obviously :) | 22:35 |
| GeroldKa | as you can see Felix; nobody takes really care about the nettiquette :-( | 22:36 |
| liknus | ok , then :) we are planning in Greece a 2-day FAD for September | 22:36 |
| spevack | ask yourself this -- if you could spend 3 days in a room with 3 other Fedora contributors, who would they be, and what would you do? | 22:36 |
| GeroldKa | also not me :-( | 22:36 |
| spevack | GeroldKa's answer will be: "I would chain max to a desk for 3 days and we'd finish planning FUDcon Berlin." Which we are doing in about 10 days, in fact :) | 22:36 |
| GeroldKa | sorry Max ... | 22:37 |
| GeroldKa | also again Thomas and Fabian for Linuxtag :-) | 22:37 |
| GeroldKa | *bg* | 22:37 |
| spevack | yes, it's a LinuxTag/FUDCon FAD :) | 22:37 |
| heffer | spevack, i problem is that i don't see that FADs are actually a place to "get shit done" but rather to approach problems from a rather philophical view and maybe define guidelines and such | 22:37 |
| liknus | Following the 2 previous hackfest in our region we think that it is possible to make a more "U" approach (for translations etc) during the translation period for F12 on September | 22:38 |
| heffer | it's a good place to discuss problems. but i don't know how productive FADs are from a "getting shit done"-point of view | 22:38 |
| spevack | liknus: perfect. I'd encourage you to start planning it w/ a page linked from here -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD | 22:39 |
| spevack | heffer: as long as it makes any sort of forward progress faster than would happen on email/irc, i think it's successful | 22:39 |
| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> tatica(Remote closed the connection) | 22:39 | |
| GeroldKa | the new FAD must be created right now | 22:39 |
| spevack | just getting written down a prioritized list of shit to do with owners is a victory a lot of times :) | 22:39 |
| GeroldKa | you are part of it | 22:39 |
| GeroldKa | you are Fedora, keep in mind ... | 22:40 |
| liknus | spevack: we allready use the wikis for organization so we will continue on that :) | 22:40 |
| GeroldKa | that you are the leaders, not fellows .... | 22:40 |
| heffer | okay. so maybe the expectations are too high and we should define a FAD a bit more specific. when do you call a meeting of people a FAD? | 22:40 |
| GeroldKa | each of us has a voice | 22:41 |
| heffer | if there are 2 people discussing Fedora related problems? | 22:41 |
| GeroldKa | because heffer | 22:41 |
| spevack | look at this example | 22:41 |
| spevack | currently being planned | 22:41 |
| spevack | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Activity_Day_Fedora_Development_Cycle_2009 | 22:41 |
| GeroldKa | you are Fedora | 22:41 |
| GeroldKa | you are ACTIVE | 22:41 |
| GeroldKa | in a Day | 22:41 |
| GeroldKa | FAD | 22:41 |
| GeroldKa | :-P | 22:41 |
| heffer | okay that helps me to understand what a FAD actually is | 22:42 |
| heffer | i must admit that is wasn't exactly sure | 22:42 |
| spevack | heffer: i'm sorry if my explanations were not good | 22:43 |
| heffer | my problem probably is that i somewhat measured it against the FAD we had in Basel without taking into account that this is mostly a whole new concept :) | 22:45 |
| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> Matias_Arg("Leaving.") | 22:45 | |
| spevack | heffer: yes, it is definitely new :) | 22:45 |
| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> loupgaroublond(Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | 22:46 | |
| spevack | hmmm | 22:47 |
| spevack | conversation seems to have died out. | 22:47 |
| heffer | i find it somewhat hard to draw the ambassadors attention to things like "Organize a FAD" at the moment | 22:47 |
| spevack | heffer: what do you mean? | 22:48 |
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| heffer | it seems that the noise on almost all lists exploded somewhat | 22:48 |
| lfoppiano | hi all | 22:48 |
| lfoppiano | sorry for my delay... | 22:48 |
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| lfoppiano | LucaFoppiano here | 22:48 |
| red_alert | heffer: why is noise on the lists an argument against organizing a FAD? | 22:49 |
| heffer | it sure is no argument. but maybe some Ambassadors are unaware of FADs. i could even imagine that some ambassadors even are having FADs without even knowing it :) | 22:50 |
| heffer | i think what we are looking for is something to structure and focus the efforts that are being made | 22:50 |
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| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> warren("Leaving") | 22:51 | |
| heffer | and bringing the concept of FAD to the ambassadors community is essential | 22:51 |
| heffer | so i think it's time for some inhouse marketing :) | 22:52 |
| heffer | "The Ambassadors Handbook" :) | 22:52 |
| red_alert | not only to the ambassadors, imho | 22:52 |
| * inode0 thinks bringing the concept to other communities is essential | 22:52 | |
| red_alert | that's why I came up with that publicly announced FAD-topic-suggestions list :) | 22:53 |
| inode0 | exactly :) | 22:53 |
| ... join!#fedora-meeting -> warren(n=warren@redhat/wombat/warren) | 22:53 | |
| heffer | I recently looked into DTP a bit. As soon as i feel comfortable with Scribus i could craft some leaflets with some short info | 22:53 |
| spevack | red_alert: so, are you going to make that happen? :) | 22:54 |
| heffer | i believe if we supply information in really easy and basic ways that would enable non-english communities to understand what we're up to | 22:54 |
| spevack | if people spent 10% of the time they do coming up with release names coming up with ideas for hackfests/workshops/meetings/FADs, we'd be in great shape :) | 22:54 |
| red_alert | spevack: I wasn't saying that, but if nobody else volunteers... ;) | 22:54 |
| heffer | what i have in mind is a kind of ambassadors guide in simple english :) (just like wikipedia in simple english) | 22:55 |
| spevack | red_alert: i can do it, it's ok. :) | 22:55 |
| * spevack can find 20 minutes tomorrow and make it happen | 22:55 | |
| heffer | spevack, well i believe people need some guidance with that. maybe a exemplary time schedule | 22:56 |
| red_alert | heffer: 'writing a simple-english ambassadors guide' could be a nice idea for a FAD, IMHO :) | 22:56 |
| spevack | heffer: yeah, good idea | 22:56 |
| heffer | one argument i often hear is "when should i find time to do wobble?" | 22:56 |
| spevack | there's a few people in ambassadors who want to write that guide | 22:56 |
| spevack | ewan luca did a sort-of-mockup a while back | 22:56 |
| spevack | that would be a good thing to pick up | 22:56 |
| GeroldKa | another topic can also be "Ambassador Event Box" | 22:56 |
| spevack | an entire FAD could just be "nuking from orbit all the crap under /Ambassadors in the wiki" | 22:57 |
| spevack | "and writing new stuff that is good" | 22:57 |
| heffer | and more art | 22:57 |
| heffer | with easy pictograms :) | 22:57 |
| heffer | flowcharts :) | 22:58 |
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| red_alert | heffer: so you need some experienced ambassadors for the input, some good writers and somebody good with graphical tools and there's your FAD :) | 22:58 |
| spevack | ok, i think we got the beginnings of a few ideas out there, and the main takeaway that I have is "we need to get more people thinking about this, and we need more good examples to show people that they can copy" | 22:58 |
| heffer | for example | 22:58 |
| ... leave!#fedora-meeting -> mcepl() | 22:58 | |
| heffer | spevack, right. organize a FAD, have it and then create buzz on Planet | 22:59 |
| spevack | our hour is almost over, but before it ends I just want to say thank you to everyone for your time tonight. I know you all have many things to do, and I appreciate you taking an hour to talk with me | 22:59 |
| red_alert | heffer: why not put that idea on the planet and ask for people in EMEA interested in a come-together for this task? | 22:59 |
| heffer | let's call that viral marketing :) | 22:59 |
| ... signoff!#fedora-meeting -> mxcarron(Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | 23:00 | |
| spevack | ok guys, we'll adjourn the meeting to make room for the next group of people. I refuse to give up on this FAD idea -- it is fundamentally about improving collaboration in Fedora, and that will always be an important goal for me. | 23:00 |
| spevack | thank you all for your time tonight -- we'll talk again in 2 weeks at our next EMEA ambassadors meeting | 23:01 |
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